tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post3425741706374745952..comments2023-09-29T08:51:56.163-07:00Comments on Coyle's InFormation: Turing's Cathedral, or Women DisappearKaren Coylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02519757456533839003noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-49679495876455447612013-12-07T16:30:09.029-08:002013-12-07T16:30:09.029-08:00Thanks for this critique of the book itself. As t...Thanks for this critique of the book itself. As the author of the wikipedia article on Klari - I would really appreciate being pointed at more reference material so I can improve the article! I would also encourage others to dive in, expand it, correct errors.<br /> <br />The great thing about wikipedia is we can all edit it!<br /> <br />If anyone knows of published material on Klari we can cite - that would be a huge help!<br /><br />Thanks<br />DonnaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836408370560333368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-53523881236943046562013-12-07T16:29:28.099-08:002013-12-07T16:29:28.099-08:00Thanks for this critique of the book itself. As t...Thanks for this critique of the book itself. As the author of the wikipedia article on Klari - I would really appreciate being pointed at more reference material so I can improve the article! I would also encourage others to dive in, expand it, correct errors.<br /> <br />The great thing about wikipedia is we can all edit it!<br /> <br />If anyone knows of published material on Klari we can cite - that would be a huge help!<br /><br />Thanks<br />DonnaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836408370560333368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-79258899297538219332012-12-10T22:02:12.694-08:002012-12-10T22:02:12.694-08:00So, you mean you would have preferred that Dyson h...So, you mean you would have preferred that Dyson had not mentioned in the list of Principal Characters- after stating FIRST what they did in their own right - that these women were the wives of (or in the case of "presidential advisor" Marina vN Whitman, the daughter of) the men there were, indeed, the wives of? No historian is going to do that. Maybe he did not go into details about women working at Los Alamos because - Gee - this is not a book about Los Alamos! <br /><br /> I just take issue with the complete dismissal of this excellent historical contribution because the author "could have said more" (in an already overly long book) about the women he highlights. Generalizations in your blog are simply untrue. Dyson hardly "failed to notice that there were women involved in the invention of this field." An objective read by anyone who isn't setting out to find "another book on the topic written with male blinders" - talk about having blinders on - will find a lot of women in Turing's Cathedral. Your readers should take a look at Dyson's appearance at the Computer History Museum on YouTube - going out of his way to introduce Akrevoe Emmanouilides from the audience, pointing out that his mathematician mother came to IAS before his father, and talking about Helen Dukas' influence on Einstein, this is hardly a guy who comes across as denying the contributions of women to science. After 30 years in physics, I think I can recognize those guys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-35360803345986032542012-12-09T08:20:45.858-08:002012-12-09T08:20:45.858-08:00... wife of ... wife of .... etc. That's my po...... wife of ... wife of .... etc. That's my point. They each get one sentence, maybe two, but only as wives. There were women working in Los Alamos at that time who were not wives of the men in this book. There's no mention of them. At least some of the wives also did work at Los Alamos, but there's no exploration of their activities except Klari van Neumann. There may have been careful research, but when you are only looking for men as significant actors, then that's all you find. <br /><br />http://www.atomicheritage.org/mediawiki/index.php/Women_at_Los_Alamos<br /><br />http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/courses/teachers_corner/31784.html (Women scientists of Los Alamos)Karen Coylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519757456533839003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-58312361812318709962012-12-08T21:14:24.497-08:002012-12-08T21:14:24.497-08:00This is one of the most unfair and inaccurate &quo...This is one of the most unfair and inaccurate "critiques" I have ever seen; I am left wondering if we even read the same book. As a woman in physics (PhD 1980s from THE West Coast institution) and amateur historian I was impressed, when I read this book, by the care Dyson took to highlight the roles (and many outside accomplishments) of the women in this story. A few examples can be found at the beginning of the book in the way Dyson describes women who appear in the list of Principal Characters, e.g.:<br />"Thelma Estrin - Electronic engineer, member of the IAS ECP, and wife of X..." "Bernadetta Miller: Pioneer aviatrix; administrative assistant at the IAS..." "Kathleen Booth: Computational physicist and member of X's Biomolecular Structure Group..." "Hedwig Selberg: Transylvanian born mathematics and physics teacher; wife of X..." "Verena Huber-Dyson: Swiss American logician ..." "Francoise Ulam: French American editor and journalist; wife of X..." "Marian Whitman: Economist, US presidential advisor, and daughter of X..." Hmm, do you see a pattern here? Dyson also highlights the role of Rosalind Franklin, usually unmentioned with the celebrated Crick-Watson duo, in elucidating the molecular structure of DNA. It IS true that Klari von Neumann is presented in the book as John von Neumann's helper - as she described herself, in her own words: "He (Johnny) also wanted to see how someone who had none or very little experience in the field, how such a person would take to this novel way of doing mathematics. For this experiment he needed a guinea-pig, preferably a mathematical moron and, unquestionably for this purpose the ideal subject was right there within easy reach - namely me." If Klari Dan had not married von Neumann, she surely would never had been programming computers. This blog completely ignores the book's historical accuracy and careful research, which is backed up by hundreds of listed references. I have little hope that the blog author will let my comment appear, but I hope she will at least go back, really read this great book, and reflect on whether her opinion is objective and justified. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-24876233339641793242012-11-12T12:26:44.618-08:002012-11-12T12:26:44.618-08:00More of an FYI... have you read "Recoding Gen...More of an FYI... have you read "Recoding Gender: Women's Changing Participation in Computing" [http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0262018063?tag=betteraddons-20]? It was published last month, and I've ordered a copy for our library.yo_bjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13690486292696333379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-5176735736318042912012-11-12T12:23:34.181-08:002012-11-12T12:23:34.181-08:00More of an FYI, but have you seen "Recoding G...More of an FYI, but have you seen "Recoding Gender: Women's Changing Participation in Computing" [http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0262018063?tag=betteraddons-20]? This book was published a month ago, and I've already put an order for a copy for my library.yo_bjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13690486292696333379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-53514180734475552422012-11-09T09:11:41.423-08:002012-11-09T09:11:41.423-08:00Thank you for picking out all the women and lookin...Thank you for picking out all the women and looking into who they were! I've done this kind of combing through books and anthologies and histories to find the women in the footnotes and who are mentioned as wives & then done more research to find their actual work. It would be such a great research project to try and uncover more about the early lives and careers of these mathematicians, scientists, and engineers!Lizhttp://bookmaniac.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-29773722679264368062012-11-06T11:50:48.529-08:002012-11-06T11:50:48.529-08:00With great apologies to Mark (I will once again tu...With great apologies to Mark (I will once again turn off the captcha and see if the spam becomes overwhelming, *sigh*), I am reposting this comment received in email:<br /><br />Your captcha has defeated me so many times I give up on trying to comment on your recent (good!) post on women's involvement in early computer programming work and will contact you directly on the gronds that the link might be of interest. My comment was this: "I haven't looked at the photographs associated with the IAS computer project for some time (I worked there from '87-'94), but many of the group shots give you a good idea about how many women were involved. Many of the documents are being digitized under a new archival regime and are available at: http://library.ias.edu/ecp"<br /> <br />I'd add that one DIS-advantage Mr. Dyson would have had in compiling his work is the familiarity he no doubt had with folks like Atle Selberg and (Herman) Goldstine. These were awfully nice folks, most of them, but they didn't give a lot of thought to the contribution of the women who worked for them, or even to those administrators (not very many, I'd guess) they came in contact with. <br /> <br />I'll have to have a look at the book, when there's time. Thanks for reminding me of that and for the bibliography.<br /> <br />Best,<br />Mark Darby<br />(Archivist, Institute for Advanced Study, 1988-1994)Karen Coylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519757456533839003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-49059924575678422862012-11-04T04:12:10.772-08:002012-11-04T04:12:10.772-08:00Yes, that occurred to me, too. But, as I said, I h...Yes, that occurred to me, too. But, as I said, I haven't read Grier's book, so I can't say whether the different term is warranted. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-49462613709319320332012-11-03T14:38:19.587-07:002012-11-03T14:38:19.587-07:00OMG, I don't know why I didn't notice this...OMG, I don't know why I didn't notice this immediately: article by Jennifer Light is "When computers were *women*", book by David Grier is "When computers were *human*". Well, I guess the up side is that the logical conclusion is that women are human. Karen Coylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519757456533839003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-63457244801398255162012-11-02T18:34:26.964-07:002012-11-02T18:34:26.964-07:00Thanks, this is a great critique. I'm still go...Thanks, this is a great critique. I'm still going to read the book, but it's really sad that Dyson could be so blindered.Erikhttp://e6h.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-17891597102977695202012-11-02T09:30:46.706-07:002012-11-02T09:30:46.706-07:00Thanks for this. (And sorry for the delay in posti...Thanks for this. (And sorry for the delay in posting: I have to moderate the comments or I get a bunch of spam.) I was able to find open access copies of this outside of project Muse, BTW, so for others who don't have Muse access, just Google it.<br /><br />The article is interesting AND has some great citations worth following up.Karen Coylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519757456533839003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3338174527262061848.post-55565753420929285412012-11-02T05:40:32.126-07:002012-11-02T05:40:32.126-07:00I haven't read Grier's book, When Computer...I haven't read Grier's book, <i>When Computers Were Human</i>, but I recognize the theme from Jennifer Light's earlier article, though the nouns are different: "When Computers Were Women," <i>Technology and Culture</i> 40.3 (1999) 455-483 https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/technology_and_culture/v040/40.3light.html.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com